Failing For You
Failing For You
"The Growth Paradox" by Jacky Fischer
Get ready to turn your failures into your most valuable assets with Jacky Fischer, the art-major-turned-CEO of Three Men Movers, who joins us to share how missteps can be the foundation of exponential growth. Jackie's unconventional path to leading a multi-million dollar business proves that success isn't a straight line but rather a squiggly one filled with lessons learned from when things don't go as planned. In our engaging discussion, we tackle the Growth Paradox, the pitfalls of reactive hiring, and the game-changing practice of documenting processes to solidify a business's backbone for scalability.
Connect with Jackie: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jackynoons/
Order 'The Growth Paradox" :
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1637744080/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
3 Men Movers Website
Work With Me:
https://www.jordanyatesmarketing.com
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https://www.linkedin.com/in/jordan-yates-/
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Hello everybody, welcome back to another episode of Failing for you. It is me, your host, jordan Yates, and today I am joined by a guest. Her name is Jackie Fisher and she was recommended to me by Marie, who also recommended our very last guest. So Marie has been really on point with her guest's recommendation. So I'm grateful that she got us to cross our paths, because Jackie has a very, very cool story in life that she has lived and she, as I was telling her before this recording, I've not seen somebody with so much success embrace and be so transparent about their failures along the way, and in doing so she also wrote us a book. It is called the Growth Paradox and I'm not going to talk too much about it because I want you to hear it directly from her. But without further ado, jackie, hello, I'm so happy to be here today. We are excited to have you and I know all the listeners are very excited. I had a few comments after posting the last episode saying who was coming on and they're like ooh, that one that sounds really cool, like we can't wait to hear from her. So I'm glad that you're on now and so I'll just get us right into it, just like a little bit of introduction. So could you share a little with us about your early experiences when you took over three men movers, which is guys, for reference the company she is a CEO of now and has grown from I think your book says $3 million to $50 million, but just some initial challenges you faced in transforming what was the smaller family business into a large scale business.
Speaker 2:Well, the initial challenge was I was in way over my head, so as an art major and my dad had a stroke, so that's how I came into the business. I didn't have a business degree, I didn't know how to look at financial statements, I was in way over my head and so I had to teach myself a lot and I failed so much in the beginning and it was probably the catalyst. Failing so much was the catalyst of writing the book, because I was like if I could jot down everything I wish I would have known, maybe I could prevent other people from having as many failures as I did. Because I feel like if you're going to grow, you have to look at things in two ways. Either one, you have to get experience, which means you got to fail a lot, or two, you have to be willing to be vulnerable and open up and learn from people who have failed and try to avoid those mistakes.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely. That's why I've called this failing for you, because I'm like you know what, guys, if you're nervous to put yourself out there, let me go do it, let our guests do it and we'll just tell you how it went. And hopefully you can learn something from us, because I think I do not the greatest job of thinking too far ahead sometimes, and that's why I liked one of your chapters was called let's see, I just had it pulled up, failed a plan. Plan to fail. That one hit me hard. I was like that's, that's factual.
Speaker 2:I just can hate that when I say that, because I usually say that when he's failed a plan and he does not like that expression. But yes, absolutely, and I was. You sent me an email like do I need to hire an employee? Or I'm at that point where I'm thinking, and a lot of times people do what they think they need to do, but they don't have an overall plan. So I think my advice would be don't hire somebody because you think you need to hire somebody. Hired somebody because it's part of an overall strategic plan and I think that planning and scaling it's they're so connected, because a lot of times what we do is we try to grow our revenue in a business and then, when the revenue takes off, we start running around trying to put processes in place to keep up and then the revenue drops. We start scrambling around trying to get the revenue to go up when we don't build the infrastructure that we need to build ahead of time to grow. And then we do reactionary hiring. We're like, oh my God, we need more people. We hire really fast and we get maybe not the best people on our team and things kind of go ugly.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, I definitely agree with that, because I think the thing that I personally struggled with in this whole wanting to grow is a year ago my company didn't exist. It kind of I don't want to say fell into my lap. But I found a niche and I just started making money in it. It was growing quickly and it was just a side thing. You know, I have a day job and I was like, okay, I think it would be helpful if I got an intern for these more admin tasks. But my issue is I get so overwhelmed to trying to explain something to somebody because I've not charted out any of my processes. So yesterday when I was driving to the airport, I was listening to the chapter that was explaining kind of like you need to document like your processes so you can assign a task to each person. Can you kind of get more into that, because one I would like to learn and I'm pretty sure it would be beneficial for other people to hear more about that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so there is. I've heard that a lot. It's just faster if I do it myself and I know it's going to be done exactly the way I want it. It takes too long to explain it to somebody, and you're right. It's true, you're absolutely right. There is in the book. Later in the book there's a section about a J curve and it's kind of hard to describe over a podcast that I didn't expect me to write on a chalkboard. But basically you have time going across the bottom of the axis and money going across the time. So when you're explaining to your intern how to do that, it takes maybe you could do it yourself and it would take you two hours you explain it to her and it takes you, let's just say, four hours to explain all the nuances. So you're wasting your time that you could be charging for explaining to her how to do it. So the amount of money it costs you and then four hours of time to explain it creates this like little J curve, like a dip right, and You're absolutely right. It's like it doesn't pay for itself at first. But if you can keep on loading on work on this person and she starts you're a key starts understanding how to do this job, then you make up for it in the long run. I think for companies to scale and become Multi-million-dollar businesses, they got to let go and trust that it might not be done exactly the way you want it done. It might not be perfect, but it's good enough. And if you've got 10 people producing work for you and you're charging an hourly rate for them, how awesome is that?
Speaker 1:right? Yeah, no, it's. It's insane to think about and sometimes I want to kick ourselves because we're like, okay, if I did just dedicate this time, like you said, the growth could be more exponential. Is that something that you kind of saw was the catalyst for when your company started growing a lot more? Because the, the amount of growth just on paper is insane is? Is that sort of where you found that you hate your stride, or was it more just over time?
Speaker 2:I think the the biggest, the biggest sort of Thing that happened that created exponential growth, was when it there was, like this epiphany that I had, and it had to do with Scheduling meetings. And it's actually kind of an embarrassing story because it kind of highlights how immature I was and I still am sometimes but I Hated going to business meetings. I thought they were super boring and I just didn't like them. So I was running a company probably it was about six million dollars in revenue and I would go Every time. Things would build up where we needed to meet, we'd have a meeting, but there was not a regularly scheduled meeting on the books and and so, and I knew that it was important to have meetings every week, but I was just like, yeah, I can't be bothered, and so when we did have the meetings, I would walk into the meeting and I had my agenda and everybody to sit down and I'd go yeah, yeah, yeah, and I would like tell them what they needed to do, tell them what they needed to be focused on, and if I got there five minutes late, the meeting started five minutes late. Mm-hmm leave out early. The meeting ended early. If I was on vacation, we didn't have the meeting, because the meeting wasn't about the company and the company's vision. The meeting was about me and once and and. How it switched over to becoming about the company and the vision is because I was so bored with meetings. I decided to make an agenda and I would tell them look, have this meeting, with or without me, and go over this information. Here's the agenda and my, my goal was to stop going to meetings Because I was just I just didn't, I just thought they were boring. I had better, better things to do with my time. I thought but what's better than meeting with your leadership team? So, as it started kind of going along and at first you know we had some false starts, so they would wait around. I'd shut 10 minutes late and everybody would be waiting for me. I'm like no, no, no, here's the agenda at this time. Do this at the summit. We use the EOS method. So After a while we started, they started kind of being able to do everything on their own. They would check in with key indicators, they Would go over the issues from the week, they'd create a list of tasks to do and they did everything on their own Mm-hmm. And when the meeting wasn't about me anymore and was about the vision of the company, that's when everything changed, when I was able to kind of sit there at a meeting and not run the meeting and allow them to fully engage. When you have full engagement of your entire leadership team, you really start seeing some off-the-chart growth, and so that's that's how it became. And then the funny thing was is I wanted to go to every meeting, like right now I design all my vacations around Monday because Monday we have that meeting and I love being there. Even when I'm on vacation, sometimes I still go to the meeting because I enjoy it so much. I want to hear what everybody has to say, what they're working on, and I try to just kind of be a fine wall and not Not push the meeting, not set the agenda. Allow them to do their work.
Speaker 1:That's very interesting because I feel like, like you said, when you decentralize yourself from it and the company becomes Becomes the main focus, there's this shift of priorities, because I feel like sometimes, when we are really connected to our startups or our smaller businesses, it is like we think the vision is within our head and nobody else can see it. It's like, no, I know everything that needs to happen, but it's crazy because other people are really smart and they have all these other ideas that you wouldn't have thought of, you know.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, jordan, and the reason why we think that a lot of times is because, as young business leaders or new business leaders, we don't share our idea with anyone. I think the first few years I would make. I've always made my goals. My dad was very big on yearly goals setting and so the first few years I'd write down what the goal was. And the second, like maybe like the fourth or fifth year, I started like asking, I started sharing the goals with my team. I was like here are goals this year and I would present them. This is what I'm telling you that we need to do to get us to our vision. And then, more recently, we come together and they decide what the goals are going to be. They know what the five-year vision is and they have to sit down together and decide what the goals are going to be for the company and what they want to work on that year. There's so much more buy-in when they're involved and they get to decide what they want to work on. They have so much more passion for their work than me just coming in and telling them what to do all the time.
Speaker 1:How does it feel from your perspective? I don't want to say giving up the reins, but allowing other people to take over. It sounds like you've enjoyed the process, but in the beginning of that was it hard for you to kind of let go and let the agenda take over? Did you ever feel the need to jump in and steer the ship differently? What was that like?
Speaker 2:I still have to remind myself not to do that. At times when things are stressful, old bad behaviors kind of come out and I want to jump in and take control. A funny story is a couple months ago one of my co-workers walked by the office and I was in a meeting with a one-to-one with somebody and I had a big piece of tape over my mouth. They were like they'd peek your head and they're like what are you doing? I was like you know, because I had tape on my mouth. It's because I was doing this one-to-one and I had two people in the meeting and I knew the best way to help them was for me to shut up. They needed to figure this out. You want people in your company to learn how to make good decisions. How can they do that if you're making all the decisions for them? The best thing you can do as a leader a lot of times is to shut up. It's so hard because I was like the kid in school where they'd say, okay, we're going to read this book and we're going to discuss chapter one tomorrow. I loved reading, so I'd read the entire book over the weekend, I would know, and I was waving my hands like peek, peek, peek me. The teacher was like we already called on you and being looking around, being over me to try to pick somebody else. I'm that person. If I know the answer, I get really excited. I want to be the know-all and tell the answer. So it's really hard for me to shut up, but it's important because you want people to own their decisions. What do you do if they're making bad decisions? Well, if it doesn't financially hurt the company or it's unethical or something like that, a lot of the time I let them make their decisions if they're passionate about it, even if I don't agree, because I think either one they're going to succeed or two they're going to fail. Either way, they're going to learn from something and that's really scary to let people do things that could result in failure. To talk about your whole reason for your podcast a lot of times we say, oh, we love risk takers, we love risk takers, but people who fail, they're a bunch of losers. So how can you be a risk taker if you're playing it safe? You've got to encourage your team to be okay with failure. I just had a conversation with my sales manager and she's like I'm trying to get people to try new things and she's like if we try this, it's going to be rough, it might not work. I said that's okay. She's like are you sure? I said yes, and guess what? You're going to make mistakes and it's not going to go smoothly. And that's okay, because that's what happens when you try new things. So I think failure isn't the opposite of success it's just part of it, that's.
Speaker 1:I couldn't agree more because I feel like I've been lucky with my day job as a marketing engineering work for a company where I'm so used to things being a certain way being more rigid, because in engineering it's very like we have a way we do things, that's that. But I'm a mix of like I have some traditional marketing people on my team and some traditional, more technical backgrounds, and anytime we try something new, we just call it an experiment. So we're like let's see how this experiment goes and if it doesn't go well, then that's okay because it's an experiment. So I think I've been lucky professionally to be able to shift the mindset of if we don't do good at something at work, it's okay because we are actively learning from it. We're charting the data, we're seeing what happens, and then in my personal life, my therapist always says failure is just data, and then if you fail, she always asks did you die? No, okay. Well then keep going Like you're fine, as long as you didn't die. You have a chance to make up for it and to learn from it. So I think I personally have been so lucky with my surroundings and like the inputs I have and just being so analytical. But I imagine it can be difficult as an employee for, say, someone like you who is doing all this awesome stuff, where they're like, oh gosh, like she's really successful, like I don't want to come in and mess things up, but if they have it from the top, being like guys it's okay, then that, I imagine, be very empowering for employees. And probably on the other side it's hard, like you said, where people do say they want the risk takers but they don't want to see the failures. So how can they ask for one but not anticipate the other? It seems unfair. So I think it is a big leadership mindset that has to change before people down below are like comfortable with putting themselves out there.
Speaker 2:I think corporate kills, this risk taking sort of feeling. I have another guy on my team and I'm like let's just put a B-hag, a big, hairy, audacious goal, let's put a B-hag on this. And he's like he's from corporate right and we're a mid-sized company. And he's like, yeah, but in my other job if we put a goal and we don't hit it, we get in huge trouble. So I want to make sure the goal is feasible so we can hit it. And I said, yeah, but wouldn't it be great to do a B-hag? And he's like, yeah, I absolutely want to do a B-hag. And I said let's do it. And he goes are you okay with this? If we don't hit it, I go I'm fine, let's try it. And the joy it brought him to be able to aspire to achieve something that was a little crazy, a little out there, but to know that if he tried and he missed the mark, I wasn't going to kill him. He wasn't fired yeah, he wasn't fired, like we had this understanding where he didn't have that as he had to play it safe always, which prevents growth. Playing it safe definitely prevents growth. But you know, jordan, what I really like about you is your vulnerability, and I was listening to you in an earlier podcast and you are younger and what I have found is that a lot of people are afraid to say when they don't know something or they don't have the answer, so they don't have things figured out. In this stunt's growth as well, I can be in a room full of executives and somebody's explaining something that's very technical and they'll say something, and I know that nobody in that room has no freaking idea what this person is. They like use this word that nobody's heard of. And I'll look around the room and everybody's like you can see their head going I don't know what's going on here. Then nobody has the guts enough to raise their hand and say I don't understand, can you explain this to me? And I'm kind of like I'm okay with saying I don't know the answer, and I know you're like that too, so you're going to be able to learn so much more just because you're receptive and you're able to say I don't have the answers. And a lot of times, business people they kind of like to act like they know everything.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's definitely a. You have to kind of kill your ego and be willing to look dumb sometimes and then you end up knowing more in the long run. But I definitely wasn't always like that. I used to be so anxious about the dumbest things Like I remember in high school I was applying for a job at JC Penney and my I was so anxious because I was like I'm going to have to figure out how to use the register, I'm going to have to figure out how to put the clothes away, and I would get so like stunted in trying new things because I was afraid that if I didn't learn how to do it fast enough, they would think I was dumb. That would be embarrassing and so like I would just dread at trying new things because I'm like I'm not going to be good at it fast enough to feel good about myself. And then you know I started working there and turns out it's not that hard to use a register, like everyone can do it.
Speaker 2:That was the exact same way I went when I got my first job. I went retail because I was afraid to do restaurant work because you know, you usually kind of go into one of two ways you can retail or a restaurant when you're a kid. So I was afraid to do restaurant work because I was like I'm never going to remember the orders I'm going to forget. Somebody's going to ask for something I'm going to forget. I was just really anxious and nervous about that. And I don't know how much older I am than you, but I will tell you that that feeling you had in high school to where you are now, that kind of swagger, it gets even better as you get older and I turned 50 this year and I wouldn't trade anything for the swagger I have now that I'm 50, that confidence that I feel about knowing the things I do and being comfortable when I don't know things. It feels so good and even though I've got some gray hair and some wrinkles, I'm fine with that. I love the confidence.
Speaker 1:Your confidence comes through so well in your LinkedIn photo. Your stance is like the ultimate power stance. As soon as I looked you up I was like, oh hell, yeah, she is cool, I'm so excited. So I agree Whatever you've done in your life to get where you are, it shows up. You have a very cool vibe, even through words. I don't think I've ever been able to feel somebody's personality so strongly through a book, and I've read a lot of books in the sector of I don't know if you'd call it business, self-help, whatever it is where you have to do a lot of reflection. Not exactly sure where it falls, but typically it feels more rigid, it feels dry and it feels like they already had the perspective and now they're speaking to you from the perspective. They're not speaking to you from the experience being in the trenches, yeah. And so when I felt that through your book the first time, I heard you cursing and I was like, oh my gosh, she's being really real. And you even said I'm not just going to curse unnecessarily, but sometimes you just got to say how it is. Has that ever been something, as I guess, not to make it a gender thing, but a woman in management. Sometimes they're like oh, I'm in that curse. Have you ever had to watch yourself in certain situations?
Speaker 2:The people around me know that that's my personality and I've never cursed at somebody. I've never. Hey, jordan, you're a blah, blah, blah. But I'll say, oh, that's something awesome or something like that. So they understand that's my personality. And I did struggle like, do I put that in the book? And I thought about my mom and my aunts because I know I'm gonna get in trouble Yep, personality, and I'm so glad they didn't have AI when I wrote that book, because I might have thought, well, ai is gonna write it better than me Because it, you know, I wrote it's all written myself. I didn't know how to use AI when, wow, so I would have thought AI would have wrote it better than me and I might have wrote it stuck in an AI, got it polished up and put it back in, but then it would have Changed my voice and so I don't. I don't think it would have been as good, but it's definitely in my voice and I've heard that from people who know me are like, oh yeah, that's so you, but? But I actually had somebody record it for me because I had to audition Mm-hmm, or the book, because it's with the, it's with the traditional publisher, and you record the book and they're like Do you want to try this? And and at first I was like, oh, I really want to do this. And then, and then I auditioned for it and they were gonna get back with me. And then I started thinking four days, and you have to rewind and record it over. I'm thinking you have to drink a lot of water. It's like eight hours of talking and your voice modulates. You got to keep your tone right and thinking it might be better if a professional does it. And I was like, oh, I hope I don't get it, you know. And then I didn't get it. I didn't, I didn't get the part to play myself. Isn't that ironic? I don't know, I'm kind of believed about it, but it doesn't sound like me. But she, I think she does all right.
Speaker 1:I think, even with her not being like overly, like you said, the inflections and voice, your words are strong enough that it Came through. So I don't think I think what they did was good and I think your your words. Like I said, either you're reading it in the paper copy or you're listening to it. Either way, it felt pretty impactful and I felt the personality. So that is interesting. I've thought about that before with audiobooks and things like that of books that like our audiobooks yet and I'm like, oh, I should just offer to like read this for them. But I'm like, no, I have too much commentary and like I would just be like, oh, like, that's, that's intense. And no, I, I'm not. I'm not personally cut out for it either. Also, I'm a little too ADD and I will go on like rabbit holes. I don't think I could stay focused on the text in front of me for long enough.
Speaker 2:That's what scared me eight hours of focusing on text. That that scared me.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think in the beginning your book you mentioned too that you had a little bit of ADD and that that kind of played into your initial style of Management and that you've kind of were all over the place there. How did you bring that in? Just personally wondering it, I've had a lot of other people that are usually more creative, have the same sort of brain tendencies, and I'm sure they would be curious too.
Speaker 2:So my original style of management was utter chaos. I think you can. And the thing was is like I, I come up with a lot of ideas that I think are Amazing and I want to do these ideas. And so I'd come into the company and I was like, hey, I got this great idea and everybody would be like, wow, that is great, so we start doing that idea. So I'd allocate time and resources to the idea and then, like two weeks later, I'd have another idea and then come in and say, hey, I got this great idea and I'd pull them off the project they started and onto a new project. And this was going on and on and I'd be kind I became like this flavor the month club person with new ideas and Nothing was getting done. Everybody was very frustrated and I realized that that sort of pace and the need and desire to do new things all the time, that was kind of a me thing that most employees want to work and finish a project and get things done. I was. I was just kind of creating chaos and I was kind of messing up everybody and so what we? What I do now is I, if I have a good idea, I write it down and I kind of store it away. So I have like a whole list of, you know, jackie's ideas and I everything down. And then and actually we just did it today because we're at the beginning of the first quarter and I was sitting here with my tech guy and I said, well, we're creating rocks for this quarter. I said, well, let's look at some of the things that we have that we've stored up. And we went through those things and we pulled out some written planned ideas to work on for the next 90 days. And I will leave him alone for 90 days, not bother him with like some idea that takes him off his work and it's a challenge. But how did I start doing that? Well, I started getting a little bit disciplined and I noticed it worked. And then it kind of feeds on itself, like when you see something working, you you try to kind of keep repeating in it and doing it. I have two days a week that are extremely disciplined. They're very organized. I do the same thing two days a week that I do, you know, every week. It's it's like I go to my one-to-ones with my leadership team. I have my monthly meeting with the one team. You know it's just a very organized and then the rest of the week I can be a little scattered brain and I get my to-dos done and I can be a little more scattered brain, but I have to have some discipline, time to work. You know, I also have to have that free time to explore and to work on like Interesting projects for the future and maybe stuff that are not now things to work on, but digging and researching and that Stuffed and it makes me happy. If I don't get that time to be creative, I'm not. I'm not very happy.
Speaker 1:I like how you have an actual plan and you Account for the fact that you need balance and you need the stuff that does feel good too, or else you would probably stunt your creativity and that's what you know, even the things that make us really good business starters, like you said, versus business growers and owners, like they're different, but you seem to account for both in your, your strategy. But as we're getting to the end here, I would like to ask you for a little bit advice that you could give to young or new business owners or Others in a similar situation that are afraid to take the leap in growing their business Due to the fear of failure. What could you say to them other than you know, go read the book.
Speaker 2:I think you should plan for failure and I think you should do what ifs? I mean, there's a fear for failure, and rightfully so, because sometimes if you fail, you could, you know, go belly up in your business, there's something like that. So you definitely need to look at at Choice and say what is the worst possible thing that could happen if I do this, and what I think is a lot of time, the worst possible thing isn't that bad, and then I just move forward. Also, get feedback from people, and I know I heard in one of your podcasts you were like, yeah, but then they're gonna tell you not to do that. You have to change your plans. I get it, but here's the deal. I don't agree that you have to change your plans. Sometimes I bring up one of these wild and crazy ideas to my team and I see the looks on their faces and they're like, whoa, I'm like what if we never use this? And they all kind of like freak out a little bit. And what's great is is that we have a good enough relationship where they can challenge me and they'll. They'll say, yeah, but what about this? And I'm like, okay, well, let's talk about it. At the end of the day, if we move forward, sometimes they can shut it down and they Talk to me about enough stuff and I'm like you know what? You're right, it's kind of a dumb idea. But if I continue moving forward, I have addressed every single one of those concerns and now my plan is ten times better Because I've explored all the possibilities of where things could go left. So Take your ideas, get them out there, try, try them in a small way. I mean, maybe, maybe you have a fear of starting your own business. Well, don't quit your job making a hundred and fifty thousand a year and start a food truck or whatever. Maybe start the food truck on the weekend, or you know, I'm being I'm being ridiculous now, but the point is is like it's not necessary to do all or nothing. Try a little bit of something and see how it works out and keep going.
Speaker 1:That's really good advice. I love that, and now I'm feeling very inspired to go collaborate with people. So it's it's like now I'm wanting to take a look at my processes, and it's on my to-do list of my goals this year to actually chart my processes to where, if I do want to bring someone in at Some point, then it's like I have a task I can assign for them. So I also just need to finish the book first. I'm about halfway through and I'm already super excited.
Speaker 2:So once I finish it, I might hit you up with some follow-up questions, but literally, and there's a part in the book about back casting and it's about how, when we look at our goals, it's not just about saying I want to hit a million dollars next year. You actually back cast and create benchmarks of what resources you need to hit that million dollars, and so I think that would be a good chapter for you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm very excited. But, guys, if you want to read this book and get one for yourself, I'm gonna put the links for both the audible version and the hard copy, and then basically any of Jackie's socials and, of course, the website for her Moving company, because if you need to get moved, I mean, my goodness, why wouldn't you want to choose their company? So I Will put that all below. But, guys, thank you so much for listening. I hope you are as inspired as I am at the end of this, or at least you were entertained by our silly failures we had along the way. But, jackie, thank you so much again. Thank you so much, jordan, take care. All right, guys. Well, as always, I'm your host, jordan Yates, and in the meantime I'll be failing for you. See you next time you.
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