The Importance of Mentorship in Engineering

In this episode, host Jordan Yates interviews Sol Rosenbaum, an engineer who started his own firm and later returned to it after working in a full-time job. Sol shares his journey and the lessons he learned along the way. They discuss topics such as the reasons for starting a business, the challenges of scaling, the importance of mentorship, and the need for proper business planning and financial management.

Connect with Sol: https://www.linkedin.com/in/solrosenbaum/

Sol's Mentorship Website: www.TheEngineeringMentor.com

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:14

Hello everybody, it is your host, Jordan Yates, back for another episode of Failing For you, and today I'm joined by Saul Rosen. Is it Saul or Sol Saul, saul? You know, sometimes I ask before and then I still get it wrong. So I was like I'm not going to ask, and as soon as it, came out, I was like oh, maybe I should ask.

Speaker 1: 0:33

Well, I'm joined by him and today we're going to talk about his journey of. He has an engineering background. At one point he decided to start his own engineering firm, got really into it and then was, like you know what, actually going to go back to a day job, put that to the side and then eventually made another 180 and went back to his firm and is doing that full time now and he has learned a lot of lessons along the way that he's going to share with us. So so say hello to everybody.

Speaker 2: 1:03

Thank you so much, Appreciate you having me here and hope we can teach your teacher listener something new today.

Speaker 1: 1:10

Me too. So, okay, I guess I kind of botched the intro, which is almost becoming like a trademark thing for me, I think if you listen to more of my episodes it's like I butcher the name, I butcher what I'm talking about, butcher my own name, and then I'm like, okay, let's get into it. So now that we've done our ritual, can you tell us about what it is that you do today? Just a quick, brief intro and your, your background, like the engineering side, then we'll get into the actual storyline.

Speaker 2: 1:37

Okay, absolutely so. As you mentioned, I have a background in mechanical engineering and I went right into the energy efficiency field out of engineering school. A lot of zigs and zags. But where I am today is within the due diligence world of the commercial mortgage finance industry, and what I always say is that my firm is at the intersection of engineering and that mortgage finance world. We deal a lot with energy projects that are tied to various green loan programs. We do engineering review of property condition assessments and we also get a lot of sort of green certification projects that sort of fall into that sustainability realm.

Speaker 1: 2:18

Very cool. Sounds like an interesting day-to-day life that you live in that sector. So now that we kind of have your accreditations and what you do, let's take it back to when you first decided to go out on your own. Why did you decide to go out and start your own business?

Speaker 2: 2:36

Right. So I'd like to say that I had all my ducks in a row and I really knew what I was doing, but I didn't. I think that I went out just because I wanted what a lot of people do when they open up their own firm they just want control of the projects and they want to say, oh, I like that project, or I want to work on Tuesday but not on Wednesday and just have the full control. So, thankfully, things turned out okay in the end. But yeah, those things are big myths and yeah, thankfully I survived, but it's really not the best reasons to go out and do your own business.

Speaker 1: 3:15

How old were you when you decided for the first time to try it?

Speaker 2: 3:18

how old were you when you?

Speaker 1: 3:20

decided for the first time to try it. I was 30. Okay, so still pretty fresh in your career, a little bit of experience, but not, like you know, fully set up in life. So you're, you're 30, you go out and, it's shockingly, you were doing well financially with it, which is a lot of times the reasons people will stop doing their business is because it doesn't work. They had an idea they thought was good, it failed, but that wasn't the case for you. You actually were doing okay financially with your business, but can you walk us through the reason that you decided? This is kind of too much.

Speaker 2: 3:52

Right. So I started the business in 2007. And it was in 2017 that I pivoted Basically. One of my clients was creating a new position within our industry, and it was in 2017 that I pivoted Basically. One of my clients was creating a new position within our industry and they said, hey, we'd like to hire you into it.

Speaker 2: 4:06

And what it came down to was I was completely burnt out. I did not have a good structure with my firm. It was just me at the time. I did not have a good plan for scaling and building out new projects. I did not have a good plan for how many clients would I take on at a time or how I would develop new clients. It was just sort of running ragged and just saying, oh okay, hey, new client, sure, new project, no problem. And just taking on everything without a real plan. And so I think, because I was doing well financially, I probably hung around longer than I would have otherwise. But yeah, I mean, like you said, the money side of things was totally fine, but because I was so burnt out, getting overwhelmed when they came to me with that offer in 2017, I really did jump at them. Like you know what. This is the right time to go and do that.

Speaker 1: 4:56

So when you were getting to that point of feeling the burnout, you said it was 10 years that you lost. I mean, that's pretty good. Most people don't even last at a job that long. Did you ever try to scale in that point? Or did you just decide like I want to keep all the money in house, like I want to do it all myself because you know you don't have to profit share when you keep it all in-house? Or what was your reason for keeping it in-house?

Speaker 2: 5:21

So I think that you do touch upon a point and this is a sort of a pitfall that a lot of I think a lot of solopreneurs can fall into, in that you take on an extra job because you're like ooh sweet, an extra 500 bucks. You know I can do that even though it's already 11 o'clock at night, and you really should. You know, like you're already past that time. So I think that you kind of get to that point where you're like okay, this is getting a little crazy, I need to shift something. But I did not have I don't think I realized at the time how bad it was, like how bad my planning was, because from an engineering perspective, I had good clients, I had continuous projects. I don't think I really realized that it was, you know, poor, poor planning, you know, when it came to scaling and taking on new clients that that was really the crux of it all.

Speaker 1: 6:11

Yeah, no, that's. The tricky part in a lot of businesses is the scaling factor Like there's a lot of like documentation, paperwork, teaching that goes in and a lot of unpaid hours upfront of having to grow your team and then you, you know, receive the benefits on the back end. But to me, that's always been something that's scary in my business and it's like gosh, I could keep this monthly paycheck to myself or I could split it with a team, but then I have to get more customers and it's just like very overwhelming. When you were in that period of time, did you ever have anybody try to give you advice and be like, hey, maybe you should do it this way? Like, were you receptive, or were people ever trying to help you?

Speaker 2: 6:47

Not really because I wasn't. Really wasn't that they weren't trying to help me. I just wasn't reaching out for help because I didn't think I had a problem. And it's funny because one of the reasons I enjoy, you know, I have a sort of side thing where I like to mentor younger engineers and one of the reasons I do that is because, especially in the early part of my career, before I went on on my own, I had some really good mentors, great guidance, who taught me a lot that I went back which we'll discuss, you know to that full-time role on the management side of things.

Speaker 2: 7:21

But sometimes you don't see your own issues and sometimes you also. It's a catch-22. Like you talk about outsourcing and getting new people, you know, yes, I could hire someone, but then I got trained them. It takes time and they're going to take some of the money. Is it worth it? And it's easier to just say, hey, I'm just gonna continue the way I'm doing it. Even if it is not, you know best for your mental and physical health. You just kind of be like I'll push through, it'll be all right, Don't worry about it.

Speaker 1: 7:47

Yeah. No, I find it to be very overwhelming to teach somebody to do what I'm doing and take over, because I feel like I have a chaotic process and it's like the output looks good and the customer likes it, but to have to explain my process to somebody else I've always found to be incredibly difficult, and so it's something that I've had to over the last few months like slow down and start writing out and charting everything I do because I'm like, okay, this is, it's not sustainable like this. So I've definitely learned personally as well. But I want to go to when you took that job offer from one of your customers. I've had some of my customers offer me jobs that were, you know, my customers and I like the relationship dynamic, but I was always afraid of making the transition to being then employed by them. Was there ever like any hesitancy there of like the relationship changing and possibly not being in your favor, or or was it a smooth transition?

Speaker 2: 8:41

So the only hesitancy was really coming from? Do I want to be, you know, beholden to one sort of one entity, to be a full time employee? But I had no, no qualms about dealing with them because I like them, like I had already, you know, I've been out to their offices, you know, many times. I knew all the people there. You know it's just a great group of people to work with. I enjoyed my role there, and so I knew what I would be going into, what it would be growing to, and I thought, okay, this will work out well. And so, no, I really didn't doubt. From that side of things, I didn't have any issues. The truth is, though, the one thing, part of my hesitancy I was actually afraid, you know, like sort of holding back, like to tell some of my other long-term clients like hey, by the way, I'm being hired full-time so I can't work with you anymore because of the conflict of interest, because I felt like I was letting them down. So that also held me back slightly.

Speaker 1: 9:34

What was that like Walk us through those conversations and kind of how you had to like, pump yourself up to do them for 10 years and here I was telling them hey, I got to leave, and I was actually really happy.

Speaker 2: 10:03

They were like you know what? I completely understand we're sad to see you go, but you have to do this. I understand why you're doing it. And I kept that relationship up with them so that in 2020, when I came back to the firm, they were one of the first people I reached out to and they were like oh sweet, and since then they've been sending me more work. So it's people like that. You really learn somebody's character, when they're happy for somebody else, even though you're leaving a hole for them.

Speaker 2: 10:28

And what's interesting, to share a story from my early career I was three years into my career, my first job out of engineering school and out of the blue, I got a call from a recruiter for a business development position, still within engineering.

Speaker 2: 10:43

It was a good mix that I now see as sort of the way I like to mold these jobs, where it's a good combination of business, marketing and actual technical engineering. And I remember, you know, never heard of this company, but they came to me with this offer out of the blue and I remember telling my boss at the time I'm like listen, I'm sorry, but I'm giving my two weeks notice and I told him everything about it. He goes listen, you know that I love what you do here, I love what you give to the company, but you need to take that job. He's like I can't offer you this. He's like I can't offer you the same opportunity, the same development that you'll get from that and and the money the money was also better but he's like I can't offer that to you. He's like, as a friend, as someone who cares about you, you have to take that job. You know we'll, we'll, we'll deal without you, yeah.

Speaker 2: 11:29

You know that's it.

Speaker 1: 11:30

That's that's very lucky to have had a boss that's like that, because you know so many people work in more. You know, quote unquote toxic places or ones where it's like their boss is desperate, they can't lose you, they don't want to lose you and they'll be. No, no, no, no, please stay and like guilt you, and I think that's really cool that you had the opportunity to have that kind of boss. Did that inspire you at all in your mentorship journey of mentoring young engineers?

Speaker 2: 11:54

Oh, yeah, that it's actually that guy specifically. I model a lot of my management style off of him. He was amazing. But I think that well, first of all, you talk about toxic workplaces.

Speaker 2: 12:07

I've been very lucky in my career. I've actually never worked in a toxic workplace. I've had places that I liked better than others, I've had bosses that were more interesting than others and that I connected better to, but I've never had a, you know, a really negative experience. But yeah, I think that if you start to look back and pick up from different bosses, I know that last guy he was amazing. So that's probably the most you know, the most you know from one person, from him. But even like my first boss coming out of uh university, he like he cared about a lot of people but he was just personally. Him and his wife had decided they didn't want to have children and their focus was to retire at 50. That was their whole goal, and so in some senses I was like this young married guy with a little kid. I didn't connect with him on that level, but once you start to understand, the guy and you realize where he's coming from.

Speaker 2: 12:58

He was great. You know, I learned so much from the engineering side from him how to really analyze problems and so it's about connecting with those people, and once you connect with everybody in your office, you can really learn a lot from anybody.

Speaker 1: 13:13

Yeah, I know that's a really great point, and so I want to make sure we're staying on the correct timeline. So you get out of school, you have these jobs, you get a good mentors, you go out on your own 30 to 40, you're back and it's 2017, you start this new job. Were you, at this point, doing mentorships for younger engineers, or has that happened yet in the timeline? When did that start?

Speaker 2: 13:37

Right. So I've always done something on the side with the mentorship, and so I have a website, I have a newsletter. It's never become this really big thing, but it's something that it sort of happened organically, probably in a few years into my, into my what do you call it? When I was doing the consulting, I was working in a company you know for a while and we're just talking in the break room and so I'd always, you know, you'd help somebody out around the office, but I never made it anything more formal until, you know, we're just talking with some other engineers and I mentioned something about.

Speaker 2: 14:09

Well, you know, my mentor once told me and I see like these blank faces and they're like what are you talking about? And that was only then that you realized that, oh, what I completely took for granted all of these really good mentors, supervisors, people who helped me guide me along the way is not the norm for everybody. And so you're like wait a second, that's so not cool, because I know for a fact I would not be where I am in my career today were it not for all those people that sort of helped push me to some level or to help me develop into a better engineer, a better manager, you know, really a better person, honestly, and so it's sort of my way of passing it on to the next generation of engineers.

Speaker 1: 14:50

There's something I've noticed with a trend of mentorship and like CEOs and successful people, and recently, as I've gotten to know some more CEOs, it's like they all have mentors and their mentors have mentors, and it's like this is something I've heard from people that are like doing well. It's like, oh, I have a mentor, but it seems to be like a formal thing, like okay, like I've literally asked them to be my mentor. It's not just like I work for them and they're helpful to me, and it sounds like you've formalized a bit the mentorship process. But I've noticed a lot of people go out seeking mentors. Are the people that you mentor? Are you reaching out to them? Are they coming to you? Like, what's the process like, or is it something that happens organically?

Speaker 2: 15:29

It's generally organically. People find you know I'm pretty open about the fact that I like helping younger engineers. You know, on a lot of my LinkedIn posts I have a website, the newsletter, so they, you know sometimes you'll have some of them, they'll reach out to me, they have an issue and ask for a little guidance. I think that you know you talk about like a formal process and I know that does exist In my own personal life.

Speaker 2: 15:52

It's never been a formal process. It's really been just somebody you've connected with over the years process. It's really been just somebody you've connected with over the years and so they've helped you in one way or another. I think also, you can find you know, okay, here's somebody who's really good at mentoring on you know, financial matters. Here's somebody who could help me, you know, with family relationships that you're having trouble with. You know some relative you know. So different people can help give you input and I don't think people should be too focused on, you know, finding the mentor. Just be open to learning from everybody and you'll find those people over time.

Speaker 1: 16:26

I feel like there's many times I've encountered, you know, professionals where I'm like I kind of think that they would be a cool mentor, but I'm almost shy to ask. And I feel like in engineering there's a lot of us who are more shy, lack some of the social skills and maybe do want mentorship and haven't thought about it. But now maybe they're listening and they think this is something I want to strive for. Do you have advice for somebody who's reaching out to somebody that they want to be their mentor and maybe this person isn't like you where it's like hey, I'm a mentor for young engineers, it's just a person that they aspire to be like. Do you have any advice for how to start that relationship?

Speaker 2: 17:02

Right? Well, I think that, when it comes down to it, almost all senior engineers like there are some who are grumpier, who just want to be left alone, but I think a lot of them want to share, you know, like their love for their engineering field. They want to share their passion that they have for this specific type of product. So, if you're, you don't want to come to them as a burden, like you know, continuously peppering them with questions and saying, hey, okay, what about this, what about that? But if you show a genuine interest in what they're doing and you just say, hey, you know, I saw that article you wrote, I saw that project you're working on, you know what type of experiences helped you get to that point and just engage with them on a more natural level, I think that helps out and it also goes, you know, the same thing goes for when you're looking for a job. You know, if you reach out to somebody thinking about, hey, let's start a conversation. And so if you tell them this is what I'm looking for, you know, do you have any guidance for somebody trying to move that direction? You know they're having a conversation with you. If they think you're a good fit for a job they have. They'll give it to you, they'll offer it, make you an offer and say, hey, you know why don't you come in for an interview? But the real beauty of it is that if they don't have a job, they can still help you out and help you know, pass you along to the next person, tell you a skill that you should start to develop. So think of it in terms of conversations as opposed to just you know, this quid pro quo where, hey, what can I get from that person? And move on.

Speaker 1: 18:24

Yeah, I was about to ask. So, like on the flip side of things, have you ever had somebody reach out to you request for you to mentor them and you say no because it felt like they were in it for the wrong reasons?

Speaker 2: 18:38

So I've never had somebody specifically, you know, asked to be mentored and then, you know, do that. I have had people who just start peppering you with questions and you tell them, listen, hey, why don't we put this all together? Let's, you know I can, I can give you a half hour on Friday and they keep, you know, overstepping their bounds. Because you have to realize there is, you know, there is a bit of a power dynamic where, if you're the younger engineer, you are asking the favor of somebody. You have to be respectful of their time, respectful of what you want from them, and so come to them nicely, Come to them with a little bit of humility, it certainly will go a lot farther.

Speaker 1: 19:11

That's a good point, because I've had some similar situations and not necessarily I was mentoring somebody, but they kind of like asked for my help in like how to like do some like digital marketing stuff. And it's like you know, you are in the position of being the expert, you help them with something, and then all of a sudden there's hounding you, hounding you, hounding you and you're like let me answer your last question first. And then it's like I feel bad because I'm like, oh my God, like I'm so overwhelmed with everything else I'm doing that it's like I feel the urge to like ghost because I'm just like I can't get to it right now, and so it's. It's definitely like think about, if this person is somebody that you want help from, then they're probably doing a lot. They're probably busy like be considerate when you're reaching out to them If you want this to be a lasting relationship, and just be self aware in the side that you guys are showing up in.

Speaker 1: 19:58

So now that we've kind of covered that a little bit, I want to hop back in. So we're 2020. Now we are at the end of your time at the full-time job you took and moving on to back to owning your own business. Tell us about that transition and why you decided to go back to owning your own business. Tell us about that transition and why you decided to go back to owning your own business.

Speaker 2: 20:20

Right. So I'll sort of jump ahead to now and tell you that I'm very happy with how everything turned out. But in early 2020, I did not decide, it was decided for me because we got to the end it was, you know, corona hit, you know, end of March, and so all of a sudden, you know, we had a good year in 22,. 2023 was sort of humming along, and then, all of a sudden, it's like you know, wow, we just fell off a cliff in terms of workflow, because the company I was doing engineering work, but it was within the mortgage finance world, and so, all of a sudden, nobody's buying anything, nobody's selling anything, all this commercial property is just staying stable. And so we kind of moved through April.

Speaker 2: 21:06

And I think, as we got towards the end of April honestly I forget if it was end of April or end of May where I basically got a call from the executive vice president who said listen, executive vice president, who said listen, we still want you to stay on, as you know, in that role, but as a contractor, because we can't commit to the salary, we can't have you do that. And so now you end up in a situation where, okay, I really couldn't say no, because that's it was either that or we're getting rid of you. So I was like, okay, we did that, and it turns out now, look, listen, I still do all getting rid of you. So I was like, okay, yeah, we did that. And it turns out now look, listen, I still do all of their green stuff, I still work on all of their projects.

Speaker 2: 21:44

But even you know, even that first conversation, he said, listen, and this will allow you to do work for other people. Maybe you can sort of piece it all together. And that's when I just started reaching back out to people. But I also now had three years of, you know, management experience, better marketing and business knowledge. So I think it actually helped me learn some of that that I now use in my career. And yeah, I just built it up right right from then. But I did know that, okay, I have to have some sort of guidelines within my own firm that, okay, this is what I'm willing to do, this is what I'm not willing to do, so that you can build it up, you know, good, good, strong, sustainable company, but not burning myself out and having too much on my shoulders.

Speaker 1: 22:29

Yeah, did you at any point like once that conversation happened? I am assuming there may have been a little bit of excitement towards the idea of getting to like reach back out to your old customers, but did you have the panic of the feeling of I don't want to feel the way I used to feel when I had my own business and I was burning out, like after having three years to reflect on that? Did you feel panicked at all going back into that lifestyle?

Speaker 2: 22:54

Not so much because I think that you know you have three years to reflect, three years to realize. Oh, here's where I screwed up, like, yeah, you know. You look back and you're like, how did you not think that you know, working till 11 o'clock at night all the time and always accepting every little project, was a good idea? And you also. The other thing I also realized is that you look back and you're like, wow, I've never I haven't had a down month in you know, seven straight years. I don't need that one extra project, that's fine. You know, let let that one pass and just say, hey, tell the customer, hey, I can't do it, but when you're in the, when you're in the heat of it, you don't realize. And I think that having sort of that three-year break where I went back to the full-time position helped me recognize some of those things and I think it's definitely, you know, making for a stronger, stronger firm this time around.

Speaker 1: 23:43

What did you do tactically different? Like how soon was it like okay, I need to actually hire people, I need to like write down business procedures, like what did that look like in?

Speaker 2: 23:54

your process starting over again. First thing I did was actually and something I still do to this day is I really sat down with my accountant and so I meet my accountant on a monthly basis and it's one of those things where it kind of keeps you on track, knowing, okay, what do we need to run this business, so that you know if I need to hire somebody, you know what is the revenue need to be in order to do that and not be all nervous how do you put everything together? So I was much more cognizant of the structural issues. I also hold on this book. Highly recommend the E-Myth.

Speaker 1: 24:29

The E-Myth by.

Speaker 2: 24:31

Michael Gerber. It's a really good book about talking about working on the business versus working in the business.

Speaker 2: 24:39

You have a lot of people like I mentioned to you how, when I started in 2007, I had no idea what any of that meant, and I think this would have been a good book to read at that time, because you get people who only want to do their own projects and they say, oh, okay, I'm gonna be in charge of that, but they don't realize that. Okay, now you're also in charge of the customer relations, the contracts, dealing with the aftermath, dealing with the deliverable, all of these extra pieces, projects dealing with the aftermath, dealing with the deliverable, all of these extra pieces. You're not able to just focus on that one true love. You know of the actual project work and so you know, reading this book, dealing with my accountants, knowing that, okay, here's where I want to get to that. That helped me, you know, significantly moving the right path.

Speaker 1: 25:26

That's. That's really smart to like, look at it that way and like and have that conversation with your accountant, because I feel like that's something I could definitely learn to do is be more cognizant of that, not just like, oh I think I make this much, I think I have this much left over, and stop guesstimating everything and be more tactical. I think that's great advice for any business owner of any age, because I don't think that's just strictly something young people do bad. I think that's something just a lot of people struggle with because not everybody's business minded you know, it's good to know when you need to reach out for help.

Speaker 2: 25:52

Right and I think that you know, one of the things I did poorly early, you know, like in the first iteration, is I had a period where I didn't have a business bank account. It was just, oh, it was in my. You know like what's the difference? It's just me, so it was going in my regular personal bank account.

Speaker 2: 26:07

But the problem is that then you have business expenses. You don't really have a fixed salary, so you don't really know what does it cost to run this business, because you try to pull out your business expenses and then I have my wife growing grocery shopping, going clothing shopping for my daughter, and it's like, wait, what's going on here? You don't really know. And so now the way you know, it's like I have it set up that, okay, you have a like, your business gets paid, goes into the business account and then sol rosenbaum gets paid from the business, but it you have to separate it. You have to really know, okay, this is what's there, this is what it takes, because until you start compartmentalizing that, yeah, you're setting yourself up to get a big mess.

Speaker 1: 26:50

Yeah, I'm glad that that was. One thing I did do right off the bat was set up a business account, which I was so hesitant to do because at that point I literally had made $250. And I was like this is embarrassing, I don't need an account for this. I'll do it later. But if I had to go to an accountant after a year of my first year and separate my personal finances from my business ones, he'd be like why are you eating so much DoorDash? Did you really need to buy all those little lemon leggings?

Speaker 1: 27:16

And it's like I'm glad I saved myself from that embarrassment, because it's like I don't want anyone looking at my personal credit card. No, thank you. So, yeah, definitely, if you guys take anything away from this, no matter how little your business is, if you're going to have to file taxes and do all those expenses or even look at the operating expenses side of things, set up a separate business like checking, you know, savings, whatever. What's the other one, credit? My brain's not working. Do that and you'll be very happy later. But we are getting towards.

Speaker 2: 27:49

Oh yeah, and I think just having that separate it also. Just, you can Like my accountant, he has access to my credit card statements. He'll just go online and be like, hey, we're missing a receipt. We don't have these things. Once you have that person as part of your process, like you said, if you came at the end of the year and they start looking through everything, it's a real pain in the butt. But if you meet with them every month, every two months, if they see something that you need to course correct, it makes things really easy. So I certainly recommend that.

Speaker 1: 28:22

I need to be better about that frequency. That's my takeaway today, and then I'm going to read that book that you recommended, because that sounds cool. But as we're getting towards the end of our time, is there anything that you have like, any last nuggets of advice for the listeners, any plugs you want to make? Go check out your websites, any of that kind of stuff.

Speaker 2: 28:39

So the first thing I would tell people we're talking about starting your own business what does and does not work? There's no right or wrong whether opening a business going out on your own is the right thing for you, but I really think you have to talk to people who have their businesses. Listen to podcasts like this so that you know what you're getting into, because what you have in your mind of what you think owning a business is like is not. You know, it's probably not correct. You know, maybe you're that one person who does know, but I'm assuming it's not correct. We did mention the passion that I have for mentoring. Certainly people can check out my website, the Engineering Mentor. Read some of the articles there. It's geared towards engineering students and early stage engineering careers. I'm fairly active on LinkedIn, so please reach out. I'm a big believer in networking for the sake of networking, so you don't need to need anything. You don't need to give me anything, just if you want to connect, share thoughts. You know, certainly happy to expand my network.

Speaker 1: 29:39

Love that, guys. I will put his information in the description below, as I always do, because you know who can remember all the things to do.

Speaker 1: 29:47

And then you know, we want to make sure you guys connect. So connect with him, connect with me, follow along with his journey and yeah, that's that's all we got for today. Guys, thank you so much for listening to another episode. I appreciate you all. I hope you learned something. I hope you had a good time. Don't forget to like and subscribe and all that stuff that people tell you to do, but, as always, I'm your host, jordan Yates, and in the meantime I'll be failing for you. See you next week.